Well I was made aware of a new battery technology today thanks again to Marion Rickard. See credit is being given to Envia for this technology, but the credit really belongs to the people who found out this technology in the first place, Argonne National Laboratory. This battery is touted to be 400 wh/kg, which is by far the best energy density out there so far. Just a little factoid for all you trivia buffs out there, Argonne was the first national laboratory in the united states.
But I should warn everyone out there, Envia does not want to produce such a battery. Instead they are playing a licensing game with Argonne's technology. Now how pathetic is that-- to not even have your own discovery but someone else's that you only want to license to other people? I am sure some of my good friends will be quick to say it should be public domain since the government lab was the discoverer of such technology. I, not having the full story on this technology to date, would have to say they are right.
I should also tell you that the reason this is real news is because they say you can make one for $125 a killowatt hour.
Argonne National lab did not play any role in our 400 Wh/kg battery program. Envia holds Dr Michael Thakeray in the highest regard in cathode battery chemistry. He is the best thinker, bar none in this field and an icon. We licensed his patents from Argonne four years ago. We developed our own cathode and cathode compositions to solve automotive cathode specs. This was really really difficult - we went from a few grams of cathode material to hundreds of kilograms of cathode material. To get to compositions that solves automotive specs took 2-3 years and over 25M test hours. And I still think we have solved 70-80% of the market problem. To scale-up took another 2 years of hard work. But all that work got us nowhere close to 400 Wh/kg. It took a 4M grant from ARPA-E and another 2 years of work to develop the Si-C anode and cycle it 300 times or so to get to a 400 Wh/kg 45-Ah cell. Argonne was not a party to any of this work. In addition to keep the cathode as abode at higher voltages, we developed our own electrolyte.
ReplyDeleteBut the original idea came from there as you have just admitted to. And I quote "we licensed his patents from argonne four years ago"; but the question still remains do you intend on manufacturing these batteries, or are you going to rely on licensing instead?
ReplyDeleteDear Cory: Cathode structural patents were Mike Thackeray's (as i pointed out). With cathode, you cannot get to 400 Wh/kg (technology has been licensed to several companies and only one announcement so far on 400 Wh/kg). Si-C anode is all Envia's work. Cathode development based on Mike's patents was all Envia's work. Electrolyte development was all Envia's work. Cell design and development was all Envia's work. BTW on the business model, Envia's mission is to bring the prices down for these packs asap. We could go down the A123 way and raised 100's of millions of dollars - but it does not seem like the best business outcome. We have to come up with the model where all parties in the value chain (including ANL) get rewarded but the pack prices do go down.
ReplyDeleteWell, that is good to know that you are going to be rewarding ANL along the path. So is it going to be a continuous revenue stream for them or just a one time deal. And I am well aware of A123's cost almost three times of what yours is. And I just posted another post on your company and its novel design for the batteries. You can find it here, http://engineergreen.blogspot.com/2012/03/confirmation-of-my-post-from-2152012.html and I urge you to comment on it as you see fit. I am just a disabled wireman as well as an electrical engineer here, but I try my best to keep up on emerging technologies.
DeleteAtul:
DeleteSo will you be LICENSING intellectual property or will you be MANUFACTURING battery cells three years from now?
Jack Rickard
http://www.EVTV.me
@Jack Unfortunately, it seems as though they have already outsourced this technology to the chinese, as can be evidenced by their own website here: http://enviasystems.com/company/about-us/ So what do you have to say about this factual information taken from Envia's very own website Atul?
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete@Cory - We have not outsourced any technology to the Chinese. We have a fully owned Envia-only Chinese subsidiary that makes prototype cells in China. We never make any anode, cathode or electrolyte in China (whether inside Envia China or outside). We don't have any collaboration or have not accepted any form of investment from a Chinese company or Chinese Government to date.
ReplyDeleteAs for rewards, the license agreement with ANL is confidential.
@Jack - I don't know the answer yet. Market forces will dictate this.
I see what you are saying now. I just had to ask whether or not you were or already had done such, as I saw a post somewhere this morning which indicated you were planning on either doing it over there or had licensed the technology to them. Again was just repeating what I heard.
ReplyDeleteI hope for the sakes of our economy that whoever does this technology actually does it in the US. We have already farmed out enough of our technology to the asia-pacific region. What we need now is someone like yourself to take a bet on the American worker, and build it here and show the whole world what we are capable of.
Might I also say that I know of the perfect place for you to locate your factory. In Metropolis IL we have a vacant factory left dormant. You would have access to I-24 and I-57 is about a half an hour away. Plus we are right on the river, and LiPF6 is going to be made here by Honeywell. You could not ask for a better location.
And Atul this was my source for the China thing: http://www.stockhouse.com/Bullboards/MessageDetail.aspx?s=AMY&t=LIST&m=30764706&l=0&pd=0&r=0 Took me a while to find where I read it at, but I finally found it. And this is a fairly recent post having been made today.
ReplyDeleteMr. Kapadia;
ReplyDeleteIt is obvious that your company (Envia) strategically chose the Chinese to make your battery prototype because they could easily go into mass production after successful testing. I'm sure that I can call the corporate office of A123 and they would confirm that they have the expertise to build your prototype just as easily as the Chinese can. Unfortunately our American battery manufacturers won't have that opportunity because you have already given the Chinese your business. And to think that you used our tax dollars to develop this breakthrough technology...this stinks to high heaven and you should be ashamed of yourself.
Anonymous, I say wait and see if what he says is true or not. You have to realize he is from India, and India and China could be a big market for said vehicles as our supply of petro dries up. Give the guy a chance to show what he is made of-- then and only then if he outsources this tech to the Chinese, I say Katy bar the door cause anything goes at that point.
ReplyDeleteWith all due respect Cory, I don't think they'll ever outsource the technology. But I do think they'll outsource the manufacturing...and once that happens, the genie will already be out of the bottle. Take a step back and ask yourself: Why does a high-tech materials company in California hire a battery maker clear across the world in China to build their prototype battery...when it can easily be made here in the United States? (And remember, we're just talking about building a prototype...not mass production.)
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, the answer is clear: Once the battery maker in China has successfully built their prototype, they can easily go into mass production with very little difficulty.
So Cory, any idea when Mr. Kapadia is going to respond to any of my comments?
ReplyDeleteWhile we're waiting for his response, let me give you some GOOD NEWS about the mining process to create manganese powder here in the United States -vs- the environmental disaster that is used when China does it.
As you know, the U.S. has one of the largest manganese mines in the world located at Artillery Peak in Arizona. The mining company that owns it has perfected (and patented) a 100% GREEN PROCESS that requires very little water and electricity to extract the manganese. The process is so clean and efficient that they can produce the manganese for 70% less than the chinese AND they can put the tailings right back into the ground with no environmental damage.
The Chinese on the other hand use a tremendous amount of hazardous chemicals, water, and electricity to process their ore - most of which is imported from Australia. So this is another reason why Envia should reconsider having their batteries made here in the United States as opposed to China. Can you imagine the 1000s of new "GREEN" jobs that would be created when the manganese mine is in full production here in the U.S.? Of course, that assumes that Envia uses an American battery maker to manufacture their batteries. And let's remember that Envia received MILLIONS of our tax dollars to create this high-tech battery material. What a scandal this would be if they continue down this path of using a Chinese battery maker instead of the U.S.
Well Anonymous, I received your reply in my email but its not being shown here on the web for some reason. First of all, I have no idea if or when Atul is going to respond to your questions. And secondly I would have to say kudos manganese co that operates the mine at Artillery Park, AZ for their 'green' mining process.
ReplyDeleteBut more to the issue of the US vs China I would have to say that as soon as Envia had them work on their high tech battery the Chinese began stealing their technology. That is just the way that they do stuff in China. As a good friend of mine just said to me privately If you outsource the manufacturing, then you've outsourced the technology."
They licensed this technology from the US government by way of Argonne Natl Laboratories, then refined it a bit with the help of the Chinese. Or at least they (the Chinese) worked in cooperation with Envia (US). So I would have to ask Atul why did he work with Envia China to do this whenever we have plenty of qualified workers here in the US could have done this? Was it strictly because their manpower is cheaper over in China, or was it strictly because they have some of the most laxed environmental laws known to man in China?
Good points Cory. I hope you stay on top of this and keep us posted. BTW, I forgot to mention the name of the company that has the patented GREEN process for mining manganese. they just came out with another News Release today. Unfortunately it doesn't re-post very well on this site. But here it is anyway:
ReplyDeleteAmerican Manganese Inc. Commences Development of Superior Lithium Ion Battery Materials
VANCOUVER, BRITISH COLUMBIA--(Marketwire -03/07/12)- Larry W. Reaugh, President and Chief Executive Officer of American Manganese Inc. ("American Manganese" or the "Company"), (TSX-V: AMY.V - News)(Pinksheets: AMYZF.PK - News)(Frankfurt: 2AM.F - News), is pleased to announce the Company has retained Kemetco Research Inc. of Richmond, BC to undertake research in the production of an improved lithium manganese dioxide.
Manganese dioxide is produced electrolytically (EMD, Electrolytic Manganese Dioxide) or chemically (CMD, Chemical Manganese Dioxide). The addition of lithium to manganese dioxide forms material used in high tech rechargeable lithium ion batteries. There are numerous high growth potential applications for advanced lithium ion batteries, including hybrid or full electric vehicles. The challenge is to produce the material that is free from any potential impurities.
While the Company's main product is electrolytic manganese metal (EMM), the hydrometallurgical process developed by Kemetco provides an opportunity for the production of ultra-high purity manganese dioxide for use in lithium ion batteries. The Kemetco process avoids traditional steps (grinding of the resource followed by roasting) that are known to introduce impurities to battery grade lithium ion battery material.
Successful research will add a secondary source of revenue to the Company, which production can be integrated as an adjunct to the Kemetco hydrometallurgical process.
This project will be initiated March 9, 2012. In the first 3 months, the project will focus on the production of high-purity EMD and CMD from American Manganese's Artillery Peak resource. Research on lithiated materials will take place in months 3 to 6. Months 6 to 12 will focus on producing test batteries and optimizing the final products.
About Kemetco Research Inc.:
Kemetco Research is privately owned contract Research and Development Company specializing in extractive metallurgy, chemical processing and specialty chemical analysis. Kemetco was formed after the acquisition of the Industrial Process Division of BC Research. BC Research had been in operation for over 60 years as an R&D contractor in British Columbia, Canada.
Electrolytic manganese dioxide (EMD) for the battery industry is expected to be the fastest-growing segment of the manganese market. Ford Motors predicts production of electric vehicles will account for 25% of its entire vehicle line-up by 2020, and Hyundai has committed a lifetime guarantee to their electric vehicles that use lithium ion batteries with manganese spinel.
American Manganese Inc. is a diversified specialty and critical metal Company focusing on potentially becoming the lowest cost producer of electrolytic manganese metal from its Arizona Manganese Project.
This release has been reviewed by John W. Fisher, PEng, a qualified person pursuant to National Instrument 43-101.
The TSX-Venture Exchange has not reviewed and does not accept responsibility for the adequacy or accuracy of this release.
www.americanmanganeseinc.com
I am sorry Aynonmous as I just now figured it had tagged both of your replies as spam. But I have since marked them as not spam.
DeleteProbably because there was no fab facility in the US willing to make prototypes with few strings or contracts attached. The Chinese will respect IP, as long as you file in their country..
ReplyDeleteThey may well respect IP, but who says they cant take Envia's discovery and improve upon it, which would mean they are still following Envia's IP rights.
ReplyDeleteIf Argonne did come up with technology, why didnt they patent it or publish it to where we would be using it currently. Why is it wrong to build off of others ideas. All of the companies have done that, they see what other people are doing and they try and do it better. Should Tesla be discredited for making a more efficient lightbulb than Edison? It just shows that companies are jealous they missed out and are looking for easy credit where they do not deserve it. If they discredit Envia for this, it will be a disgrace to America.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteNot to mention the way companies are now we wouldn't be driving a Ford, but instead a Westinghouse automobile. See Westinghouse was Ford's employer and allowed him to work on his creation by using the companies resources. Like I say if they had had their way back then we would all be driving Westinghouses. And of course if Westinghoue would not have backed Tesla who knows where we would be. Are you aware that every single car produced until about 20 yrs ago had Tesla's patented ignition system in them?
ReplyDeleteIf a maintenance-free lead acid battery could discharge and charge with perfect electrochemical efficiency, there would be no emission of hydrogen or oxygen gas, just the quiet conversion of the plate material, one of lead and the other of lead oxide, both to lead sulfate while the sulfuric acid electrolyte changed to water while discharging; and the reversal of this process during charging.
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